Curse

Phaern Majes · Feb 20, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

I saw a mesmer in Gunnar's Hold this morning and typed in all chat "ZOMG a PvE Mesmer!!!" and got a bunch of lol's. If that doesn't prove the sorry state mesmers are in, nothing will.

Seriously, its the one class I've never taken out of pre-searing because I don't see the practicality of using it outside of pre.

Smarty · Feb 21, 2010, 08:48 AM // 08:48

The thing with mesmers is, they can be used to complete the game and get GWAMM on, but they are less effective and slower than other classes at doing so. If you want to do farming or end-game PvE with your mesmer after you've done everything else there is to do, or if you want/need to join a PUG for something such as a ZQ or ZB, you're basically SOL, which sucks if you happened to spend several years pimping out your favourite character whilst doing the easy stuff only to find out how truly useless they are at the hard stuff (particularly when they got hit by more nerfbats along the way than other classes, and received less buffs than other classes, making them comparatively even more useless than when you first started playing them).

In other words, just because a mesmer can complete the game, doesn't mean that a mesmer is good at it, at least compared with other classes, nor does it make the mesmer desirable. This needs to change.

Amy Awien · Feb 21, 2010, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

Seriously, its the one class I've never taken out of pre-searing because I don't see the practicality of using it outside of pre.

Well, you're missing out, I just took one out and she's steamrolling post-searing Ascalon. At least at lower levels they're seriously OP.

Abedeus · Feb 21, 2010, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Well, you're missing out, I just took one out and she's steamrolling post-searing Ascalon. At least at lower levels they're seriously OP.

Maybe because degen + Empathy on mobs with little to no spells works better than hitting with weapons.

It gets bad at end-game where degen is useless, monsters usually don't auto-attack (even if they did, Empathy and other spells like that are useless) and, well... Mesmer is generally a jack of all trades - good at everything, great at nothing.

jazilla · Feb 21, 2010, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Maybe because degen + Empathy on mobs with little to no spells works better than hitting with weapons.

It gets bad at end-game where degen is useless, monsters usually don't auto-attack (even if they did, Empathy and other spells like that are useless) and, well... Mesmer is generally a jack of all trades - good at everything, great at nothing.

But that's the point. You can't have every class be specialized. Some classes are for rounding out a team. Some are for very specific purposes. If you don't like a class or think that the people who made the game did a bad job with the class, don't play it. If you think a class is cool, but is overused in the game and you want to be all independent, i'm-different-from-the-crowd-guy, then do it. The problem is that I see the same people on here saying "this thing is OP", and then they say, "this is underpowered, it's unplayable". So make up your mind. Buff this, nerf that. You will never achieve perfect balance, especially with a player base like this; most of which are walking contradictions.

MagmaRed · Feb 21, 2010, 06:47 PM // 18:47

You know, I find all the whining about PvE Mesmers to be hilarious. I don't use my Mesmer often, as I have more fun on other classes, but I don't have trouble using it. And when I see people discuss PvE Mesmers, I ALWAYS.... ALWAYS see people discussing skills like VoR, Empathy, Backfire, CoP, etc. Yet I can't stand using Domination. I do use it at times, but I usually find myself running Illusion, and not degen. In fact, I take a Mesmer hero with my 90% of the time, and always run an Illusion build on that too.

What I see as the problem, is the Mesmer itself, but how people want to use them. Most people are complaining about it because it doesn't do enough damage. Big deal, Monk doesn't do much damage either (unless Smiting, but even that lacks most times). But what a Mesmer offers is outstanding. Interrupts, hex removal, casting disruption, and movement/attack disruption. Preventing a monster from casting a spell is one thing, but not all monsters cast. You can interrupt attacks though, and skills like Clumsiness are powerful at dealing damage AND preventing damage at the same time.

If you want damage, then sure, play another class. If you want versatility, Mesmer can't be beat for the variety of things it can do to disrupt the enemy.

But I know I'm preaching with my microphone turned off and the choir is singing full blast. Nobody will pay attention to what I have to say because they need damage to be good at the game.

Cuilan · Feb 21, 2010, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Mesmer can't be beat for the variety of things it can do to disrupt the enemy.

That's the thing. They can't disrupt the enemy.

Earth · Feb 21, 2010, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Magma, while that is true, in PvE things usually die before disrupting it matters.

MagmaRed · Feb 21, 2010, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

That's the thing. They can't disrupt the enemy.

I can on my Mesmer, and my heroes can as well. And Earth, I take a Mesmer hero with me almost all the time. I kill things fast. My hero does quite well at the disruption I ask it to do. I rarely take anything other then 1 heal monk, 1 MM necro, and 1 disruption mesmer. Hench vary by location of course, but include a Prot monk, battery necro, interrupt ranger (note I said interrupt, not disruption), and Earth elem. Zho and Daemon love working with my Gwen, as Frustration and BHA deal out nice damage. Lina and Dunkoro love working with Gwen, as Inspired Hex allows them to ignore things like Phantom Pain and Conjure Phantasm.

Could I do things faster? Yes, I know full well I am not moving through the game as fast as come team builds can. However, I have fun doing it, I rarely die, and I can do it with all of my 10 characters equally.

Does Mesmer NEED some love? Yes, but not as much as other people seem to think. I would love it if Anet made an update that took out Smiting Prayers completely, as well as Channeling and Command. Make Monk, Rit, and Paragon team support, not damage classes. Would cause a lot of people to stop playing them, but could create some extremely effective team builds. Instead, people look for one thing. Damage.

drkn · Feb 21, 2010, 08:05 PM // 20:05

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I can on my Mesmer

can you interrupt anything else than meteor shower in hard mode?

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and my heroes can as well.

i find your posts about mesmers to be hilarious.

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Does Mesmer NEED some love? Yes, but not as much as other people seem to think.

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I don't use my Mesmer often, as I have more fun on other classes, but I don't have trouble using it.

please use your mesmer in the underworld balanced team. or even in hard mode rragar's. anywhere in the so-called end-game. until then, you have seriously no knowledge of the problem.
and one of the sides of it is that every other player is not only faster and stronger in pve, but also much more enjoyable. casting three spells and wanding for 30 seconds, using up all energy for two spells, missing all those interruptions in hard mode, using useless skills like e-degen - that's what mesmers cope with.

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Instead, people look for one thing. Damage.

seriously, you've just ignored 1/2 of all mesmer topics of guru. great job.
now either re-read them, carefully, and find out what people suggested (especially Shriketalon's posts) or stop talking bs

MagmaRed · Feb 21, 2010, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

can you interrupt anything else than meteor shower in hard mode?

please use your mesmer in the underworld balanced team. or even in hard mode rragar's. anywhere in the so-called end-game. until then, you have seriously no knowledge of the problem.
and one of the sides of it is that every other player is not only faster and stronger in pve, but also much more enjoyable. casting three spells and wanding for 30 seconds, using up all energy for two spells, missing all those interruptions in hard mode, using useless skills like e-degen - that's what mesmers cope with.

seriously, you've just ignored 1/2 of all mesmer topics of guru. great job.
now either re-read them, carefully, and find out what people suggested (especially Shriketalon's posts) or stop talking bs

Yes, I can interrupt spells other than Meteor Shower in HM. I can't interrupt every spell all the time, but skills like Migraine, Frustration, Technobable, Shared Burden, Arcane Conundrum, etc. make it much easier. And as I stated, I take Zho/Daemon when available which also provides Daze outside of when I may be using Technobable.

I have completed UW in HM on my Mesmer, and I did it with a guild team. It was quite some time ago too, before Eye of the North introduced PvE skills like Technobably and Pain Inverter. I have also completed FoW on my Mesmer several times, 2 seperate times to get armor included. I also did Rragar's in HM for my book, and I used hero+hench to do it.

I do damage, though not as much as my Necro, Ranger, Rit, etc. do. I help the team with disruption and interruption. And I have fun doing it. I admit I am not as fast as I could be using other options, but I am not slow either. I would guess my speed versus the GW community at large is about the 2/3 mark. I'm as fast or faster than 2/3 of the people playing the game for various missions, quests, vanquishes, etc. But more importantly, I have fun doing it, and not many of the fast players are having fun, they are just accomplishing a goal.

I have not read all of the topics concerning Mesmer on Guru, but the ones I have read tend to think Mesmer has been nerfed and can't complete because of DAMAGE. I fully agree that their damage sources have been hit, but that doesn't mean they have been made less effective to an extent that warrants the QQ I see.

I do want improvements, and I think you missed that point. I do not, however, think they are sorely under represented by the skill updates. At least not for PvE. I do not use Mesmer in PvP at all, so can't comment on the situation for them there.... but this topic didnt' address PvP concerns.

Desert Rose · Feb 21, 2010, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

can you interrupt anything else than meteor shower in hard mode?

2+ second skills are manageable, even in HM.

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and one of the sides of it is that every other player (profession?) is (...) also much more enjoyable.

Bad argument. Enjoyment is subjective.

drkn · Feb 21, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Bad argument. Enjoyment is subjective.

learning to interrupt 1s spells might be enjoyable for some, i agree. but using a spell and then waiting for it 20+s to recharge or casting a nasty hex just to be able to cast another and the interrupt or do some mesmery stuff - just to see that your target is dead for a while already - is not enjoyable at all.

Cuilan · Feb 21, 2010, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Bad argument. Enjoyment is subjective.

Exactly why the PvP profession thing is flawed.

As for mesmers not being able to disrupt. That argument still stands as interrupting one skill out of many that you can get (but can't because of recharge) and ones you can't because of speed - you're not really disrupting anything. Interruption isn't the only tool mesmers have, so it's not the only thing to be looked at.

The Josip · Feb 21, 2010, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I rarely take anything other then 1 heal monk, 1 MM necro, and 1 disruption mesmer.

You take what you have fun with.

In terms of efficiency your team build is bad. Disruption mesmer is not needed at all in 99% game areas, and I know what I'm talking about because I tried to turn Gwen into something useful.

Your monk hero is also bad, and if you were more experienced in the game you would use EMo or NRt instead of monk hero.

MagmaRed · Feb 22, 2010, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

You take what you have fun with.

In terms of efficiency your team build is bad. Disruption mesmer is not needed at all in 99% game areas, and I know what I'm talking about because I tried to turn Gwen into something useful.

Your monk hero is also bad, and if you were more experienced in the game you would use EMo or NRt instead of monk hero.

I bolded the only thing you got correct. I have 29 titles maxed on my main character, 26 on my second, and 22 on my third. Titles mean nothing, but they do demonstrate time investment. Time investment indicates experience. I'm glad you think my Monk hero is bad. Sadly, you know nothing about its build. I have showed it to many of my friends when they ask for good builds. Usually they say 'looks alright', and I tell them to just try it out. Couple days later when I play with them again, they load a Monk hero immediately and it uses my build. They find the build to be better than any other option they came across. And many of those friends are Sabway and Discord regulars that I convince to try alternatives. The same thing happens with my Gwen build. I show it to people, and later find I need to use a different hero when playing with them because they stole it from me, lol.

I'm not the best there is, I don't think I ever will be. The people who do are wrong, ALL OF THEM. I do, however, know that my methods are extremely effective for my play style. I am not slow, and in fact, I am faster than most people I have played with. I don't expect you to understand this, because you are one of the deluded masses that assumes damage is the end all be all for the game. Damage works, but so do other options, and I find the other options more fun.

The Drunkard · Feb 22, 2010, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

What I see as the problem, is the Mesmer itself, but how people want to use them.

I see the abysmal recharge of skills as the problem.

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Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Interrupts,

Interrupt skills are very limiting in PvE. You produce no damage for interruption and stop the monster from moving momentarily which works for pvp when it's 8v8 (or 4v4) and there are specific slots reserved for different professions. Pve is different. Sure, you can set up to be anti caster, but you're useless whenever you fight against a meele person and mobs aren't prefectly "balanced." Knockdowns are more appealing because you have stopped the monster in its tracks and allow for AoE to do its thing. If you miss an interrupt, you get to wait a long time for the skill to recharge compared kds which recharge much faster (from a meele perspective)

As you mentioned before, it generally takes either speccing into the illusion line or getting daze on a monster just so you can interrupt a skill. In hard mode it's very frustrating trying to constantly hit interrupts because monsters have an increased cast time and don't have a predictable cast sequence (in pvp you can predict when people are going to cast). So you have the option of abusing the hero AI or crippling your team even more just so you can fit a niche.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

hex removal,

No. There is no reason why a mesmer should even spec for hex removal. The long recharge and poor benifits from the skills make hex removal almost manditory on a monk. The only reason I would use them while on a mesmer is to fill up the rest of my bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

movement/attack disruption.

Clumsiness, inep, and wandering eye all share the same fault, they stop one attack and then take a long time to recharge. In Pve, one attack isn't going to help much, the damage from the skill is. Since the damage is weak, it's much more appealing for teams to just focus on dps, not attack distruption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

If you want damage, then sure, play another class. If you want versatility, Mesmer can't be beat for the variety of things it can do to disrupt the enemy.

Such as? If I want an interrupter, I'm going ranger with BHA because they have 1)more survivability 2) a less skill-intensive bar 3) A condition where more members of the team can use and 4) damage. I'll take a mesmer hero if i'm going into a condition-resistant area or I need pblocks on monsters.

Do I want a total rework of the class? No. I want the recharge for most of the skills reduced so I'm not standing around with my thumb up my butt waiting for a monster to keel over and die. Energy management will balance out the shorter recharges.

upier · Feb 22, 2010, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I bolded the only thing you got correct. I have 29 titles maxed on my main character, 26 on my second, and 22 on my third. Titles mean nothing, but they do demonstrate time investment. Time investment indicates experience. I'm glad you think my Monk hero is bad. Sadly, you know nothing about its build. I have showed it to many of my friends when they ask for good builds. Usually they say 'looks alright', and I tell them to just try it out. Couple days later when I play with them again, they load a Monk hero immediately and it uses my build. They find the build to be better than any other option they came across. And many of those friends are Sabway and Discord regulars that I convince to try alternatives. The same thing happens with my Gwen build. I show it to people, and later find I need to use a different hero when playing with them because they stole it from me, lol.

I'm not the best there is, I don't think I ever will be. The people who do are wrong, ALL OF THEM. I do, however, know that my methods are extremely effective for my play style. I am not slow, and in fact, I am faster than most people I have played with. I don't expect you to understand this, because you are one of the deluded masses that assumes damage is the end all be all for the game. Damage works, but so do other options, and I find the other options more fun.

Builds please!
All of them, since I am guessing they work best together.

On the subject of hex removal - this is absolutely one of the things the mesmer is pretty darn good at. With HEV and SH, removing hexes means some massive damage while cleaning up your allies so that should be something you'd want your guys to run.
Or better yet - it should be something that you'd want your guys to run if it wasn't for the fact that Smite Hex is in the same line as SoH.

Lanier · Feb 22, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Mesmers do have very good hex removal options.

I also feel as though many of you are overstating the problem of the recharge of mesmer spells. I very rarely have problem with recharges and I still spend very little time wanding. In fact, I normally dont bother switching out of my defensive sword/shield set.

The Drunkard · Feb 23, 2010, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Let’s look at the hex-removing skills (that target allies) offered by a mesmer, shall we? First the elites:

Hex eater vortex- I have no problems with this spell, it’s a great elite for a support role.

Expel hexes- Another good hex remover skill, though without it requiring FC other professions can take the skill (rits, for example) and cut out mesmers from teams.

So we have two cases of strong elites, let’s see why the other skills are so bad for Mesmer primaries.

Shatter hex- 15 energy for a single hex removal is unpractical for any bar, which is why it’s not used often in PvE. This is more of an offensive hex remover than a defensive, and its hefty energy costs is going to restrict you to only using it when you have a full bar of energy.. It should be changed to 10e and have its damage reduced.

Hex Eater Signet- Is terrible. Aside from its nice 25 second recharge, it requires touch range, which limits it to the back line if you don’t want to blow up cleaning up meele. Remove the touch range to either half or full casting range, reduce the cooldown to 15 seconds, scale energy gained from 0..3,and limit the number of additional allies from 0…3.

Inspired/revealed hex- These are great for /mes for the energy gain as a cheap hex removal but their secondary effects limits its usefulness for primary mesmers. Unless you run sig of illusions or spec with the same attribute as the hexer, you have a wasted skill slot for 20 seconds. Make the skill that was copied scale with FC and reduce the duration to 15 seconds.

And that’s it-mesmers have six hex removal skills and the only ones that I have seen mesmers run are the elites. You can say they aren’t bad which is a valid opinion; I draw the line though when the skills are being used by other professions and the Mesmer is being cut out. I would like to see a few useless mesmers skills reworked for hex removal and changed to FC so a Mesmer can have a place in the party to clean up team mates and provide support to the party or burden mobs.
(Fyi these changes are pve only.)